Diversity and acceptance. Who deserves it…and who decides?

I thought I would provide a rundown of a couple of issues that keep popping up in the group…as well as the history behind these issues. Maybe that will help you to understand what has happened here….and why decisions have been made and we have lost some group members and admins.

The first issue…the issue that, IMHO, was the primary issue that got the ball rolling was controversy over “religious and faith based” posts.

It initially started when there was one person who had crossed over (what I would call) the "line" and created a post about the “evils of pre-marital sex” and then went even further to use the words "YOU people need to...blah, blah, blah".  After THAT (which really WAS over the line in my opinion).a huge controversy was IGNITED. My personal belief is that the reason this happened was because instead of dealing, DIRECTLY AND RESPECTFULLY with that one issue… that one person….group members (and unfortunately some admins) became VERY ANGRY AND OPENLY DEROGATORY.  

I came back into the group a day AFTER the post the I AGREED “out of line” was made… so I was not available (in real time) to contact the “poster” and explain why this type of posts, which did seem judgmental in its wording… was UNACCEPTABLE in a group that is MEANT TO INCLUDE EVERYONE AND a group which PRIDES ITSELF ON DIVERSITY…. which IS what I would have done if I had been here. 

As a read the post  and the comments…I began to feel very uncomfortable. There were SEVERAL very nasty, snide comments made to the post (again, disappointingly, by admins)…but not ONE GENUINE attempt to explain to this man why many in the group might find the post HURTFUL.

IF I HAD been on line at the time of this post…I am about 80% sure that, if it was properly explained to a REASONABLE PERSON (which I maintain that he was/is) he would have understood and not repeated this mistake. He WAS a man who worked in the RELIGIOUS PROFESSION. To this DAY I do NOT think that his post was MEANT to sound judgmental and I believe that he likely never thought it would OFFEND ANYONE. 

I DID see, however, how it sounded to those who were offended and, if I had the chance, I would have attempted to explain that to him with logic and based on empathy for the situations of others.

If, after this, he had continued to post these types of things (comments that appeared to be judgmental or attempting to sway/convince/threaten people that THEIR beliefs were WRONG and that they should choose HIS BELIEFS INSTEAD)…THEN I would have removed him from the group…WITH an IM explaining why this action was taken.

I do not believe (if it was handled this way) that this would have been the outcome. In my heart I STILL BELIEVE he was/is a reasonable man, passionate in his beliefs, YES, but not incapable of respecting the beliefs of others…

And a man who INADVERTENTLY stepped over some VERY STRONG BOUNDARIES….

Perhaps even MORE than healthy boundaries but more like WALLS /BLOCKS set up by these people based on what they had, indeed, suffered…triggering some people who have had BAD experiences with religious abuse (and indeed I am aware that some of these people have DEEP ISSUES RELATED TO RELIGIOUS ABUSE)

BUT without malice. Intention or even AWARENESS that these triggers might occur.

I STILL believe it was most likely an INNOCENT intrusion on a boundary that THIS PARTICULAR man (given his devout religion and faith) COULD NOT POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND.

Instrumental in this explanation of what I SAW in seeing this the day after… is the knowledge that, at THAT time, not ONE of the other admins shared a, VAGUELY, similar RELIGIOUS VIEW POINT with this man. We do not RECRUIT admins with SPECIFIC belief systems. I guess I DID (wrongly it seems) ASS-U-ME that people who agree to/volunteer to admin a large group that has such a diverse membership would understand the DIVERSITY that would be present and would be ABLE to separate their OWN feelings/ triggers/ beliefs from the MISSION of the group… that EACH would act as a fair/unbiased/protective and supportive force for ALL MEMBERS…of EVERY subset….and that EVERYONE would be treated with the same respect and tolerance as every other member REGARDLESS of these “subsets”.

I was hopeful that admins would be FAIR, EQUAL, RESPECTFUL and ABOVE PERSONAL OPINION when acting in that role. (at least as much as anyone can be without their own opinions and feelings-I understand we ALL have triggers and issues…but there ARE those who are better at putting their own personal stuff aside and acting rationally).

I thought that the admins here, at that time, WERE those people. The admins were doing a GREAT JOB, they were very NICE people and very supportive of some people….even MOST people.

The admins were a DIVERSE group as well and EVERYTHING was going along fine….UNTIL the post I mentioned above which triggered not one of the admins, not two of the admins but seemed to trigger nearly ALL of the admins, on line at that time, in one way or another.

By way of explanation of MY VIEWPOINT….while I cannot claim to be DEVOUTLY RELIGIOUS and I would NEVER claim to be even a “practicing Christian” (my own definition of this of course)….I am acquainted with religion, a have a fundamental understanding of those who SINCERELY believe and PRACTICE it in their DAILY LIVES and I am a believer.

I have been the VICTIM of religious abuse which continues to THIS DAY, as have my children BUT I KNOW, PERSONALLY, that there ARE TRUE CHRISTIANS who believe and attempt to do what they believe is right.

THAT knowledge (the knowledge that not ALL CHRISTIANS are “hypocrites”, “idiots”, “brainwashed” , “illogical” and ABUSERS behind a mask- AND the knowledge that SAYING you are a CHRISTIAN does NOT MAKE YOU ONE…and that this mask is ALSO WORN by MANY ABUSERS) keeps me, somewhat, grounded. 

This being the case, while I have suffered religious abuse at the hands of a Narcissist wearing a “mask of Christianity”…I am also able to avoid BLAMING RELIGION and ALL Christians for the behavior of one delusional man who no more believes in GOD than I believe in the tooth-fairy. 

I have questions…have times when I waiver…but I do have a background and I AM BOTHERED JUST AS MUCH by religious persecution as I am by persecution of any group. IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO ME any more than any other kind would be.

I was NOT in the group that day, and so, I was not available to handle it the way I WOULD HAVE handled it…as the one admin (at that time) who seems to have a view from both sides. 

As I read the post and the comments, I felt very bad that I was not AVAILABLE when this occurred….I felt BAD for the man who posted it because, once again, my IMMEDIATE thoughts in reading the string were….

• ü  As I read the post, I understood WHY some others were offended ( and knew they, logically, would be)
• ü  I was immediately struck by the thought that this man LIKELY did NOT understand why his post was  upsetting to ANYONE
• ü  As I read the comments I felt my face flush with the severity and the rude nature of the things that were put there and I imagined the feelings of this man IF he, TRULY, could not understand what he had DONE that was causing SUCH ANGER
• ü  I saw that MOST of these comments were made by admins of the group. The ANGER AND DISRESPECT displayed in these comments was (IMHO) IMMEDIATE, AGGRESSIVE, VERY APPARENT…and VERY PERSONAL but COMPLETELY UNEXPLAINED to the person they were angry WITH.
• ü  Most importantly, there was NO ATTEMPT to explain to this man that he might have, even if unintentionally, stepped over a line which he needed to avoid stepping over in the future or any attempt to make him understand the way his wording and remarks were being INTERPRETED by other survivors with DIFFERENT life experiences.
•  
• My feeling/belief was that, above a post on ANY OTHER SUBJECT MATTER…THIS POST drew an IMMEDIATE RESPONSE as though the people who were offended…were not MERELY OFFENDED…but treated this man as though they were ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the OFFENCE THEY FELT was UNIVERSAL, PURPOSEFUL, PLANNED and DELIBERATE.

In other words, he was ATTACKED without any warning, attempt to discuss the issue or ANY explanation of this attack. THESE THINGS ARE COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO THE RULES OF THE GROUP.The SAME rules DEFENDED and enforced by these same admins …but rules they felt did not apply to them in a PERSONALLY OFFENSIVE SITUATION.

I have to say, I was distressed.

STILL, when I happened upon the post, it was 24 hours past and I KNOW that each person(admin) has a different way of handling things…I was not logged into the group at the time…the admins who were did what they thought was best….

so I decided to remain silent and HOPE that it was an isolated incident.

It WASN’T.

 A little farther down the timeline…I came upon another post. One that was posted just a few moments before I saw it.

This, unfortunate, "poster"/woman (who, mind you, was NEVER aware of a ban on religious postings …oh yeah.. because there IS NOTHING IN THE RULES that WARNS someone that they are LIKELY TO BE ATTACKED if they post something VAGUELY religious)…had posted nothing but a simple, inspirational, quote from a pastor…with a top comment that stated “I thought we could all use this today” The quote, itself, was a reminder that this Pastor believed that even if we “feel alone” God is with us.

BENEATH this post…comments started appearing, as a watched.  These comments rivaled the comments received on the other post…BUT, the DIFFERENCE WAS…even I could NOT understand WHY these same people were so ANGRY about THIS POST. 

I saw NOTHING over the line there…at ALL. STILL she was ATTACKED as though she had just posted a sermon from the KKK…full of judgement, accusation and fire and brimstone.

I felt very upset by this.

UPON RECEIVING this “barrage” of TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE (IMHO) NASTY, CRUEL and JUDGMENTAL COMMENTS she was IMMEDIATELY FILLED (based on her response to the situation) with an OVERWHELMING FEELING that SHE had done something wrong. She apologized repeatedly (for WHAT I am uncertain) and she offered to remove the post it if others found it offensive.

I sat there for a moment and considered the situation.

WHAT did WE, as survivors of abuse, feel and do when we were REPEATEDLY, unfairly attacked and accused by our abusers (even knowing logically that we were not guilty)?

I know what I DID…for YEARS! 

AND I KNOW THE RESULT.

I TOOK ON HIS BELIEFS because MINE were UNACCEPTABLE!

I GAVE UP what was IMPORTANT to ME…in order to GET ALONG and KEEP THE PEACE!

I BECAME what SOMEONE ELSE DESIRED ME TO BE AND I LOST ME!

Most importantly…the ABUSER saw NO PROBLEM in my giving up “ME” because, in HIS VIEW…his way, his opinions, his decisions WERE SUPERIOR and he TRULY believed that if I refused to subscribe to HIS VIEWS…I was stupid, flawed and unworthy.

In his estimation, He had REASONS for his views and ALL OTHER VIEWS WERE INCORRECT. IF I did not AGREE with his views…he didn’t care…but I MUST SUBMIT to what he DECIDED or ELSE….

What line do they say that describes that?

“My way or the Highway?”

As I sat seeing this happen… with this woman, who had TRULY done NOTHING against ANY RULE or done ANYTHING that she even CONSIDERED would offend anyone (and nothing I could imagine that WOULD OFFEND most people…even an Atheist)….was NOW behaving JUST LIKE I DID for all those years!

She was being attacked for expressing a view that was NOT WHAT a few OTHERS thought it SHOULD be. She truly had done nothing wrong (IMHO) by posting it…she had NO WAY to know it would offend anyone…when she posted it…she thought of it as an uplifting message of hope to others. 

THAT IS WHAT SHE MEANT IT TO BE.

NOW, under attack from those she saw as “admins”…she was “withering” and letting go of her rights and her ability to express her OWN BELIEFS inside this group.

OK…I have to admit…at THIS POINT…I WAS NOW TRIGGERED!

I admit that I can be triggered…but in THIS CASE I TRULY could not stand by and allow a group that I was part of, an admin in and the creator of, to continue down this path…not with my participation and silent consent.

As is my CONSTANT MO ….. peacemaker…diplomat….LIBRA…see both sides…meet in the middle…if I explain it WELL enough and LOGICALLY enough…others may not AGREE but they will, at LEAST, understand my position…and we can walk away with mutual respect and understanding….blah, blah, blah…THAT’S MY MO.

You know what’s funny?….no matter how MANY YEARS I have been approaching issues this very way…no matter how MANY TIMES I SEE that this rarely works, even with NORMAL PEOPLE and it NEVER WORKS with N/S/P peoples or abusers…

I STILL CONTINUE TO TRY…EVERY time…I Just can’t HELP IT! 

I cannot seem to convince myself that this is NOT the way to go…so I keep trying!

So…

I entered the post comments. 

I TRIED to ascertain WHAT IT WAS about this post that they SO OBJECTED to

(as I truly believed they were NOW reacting to ANY religious post based on their anger over that other post and I was HOPEFUL that this would become clear in the discussion).

• FIRST, I was told that it was offensive because it was “judgmental”… I pointed out that I could not see any judgment in the post
• The “poster”, once again, chimed in, stating that she would GLADLY remove it because “she did not mean to start any trouble” (CRINGE in my HEART- this is TERRIBLE)
• I asked her to PLEASE leave it, told her that this was no longer about her post…which it WASN’T…not to me.
• NEXT, I was told that the post was “trying to push religion on people”…I pointed out that I, also, did not see this in the post.
• NEXT, I was told that, ALTHOUGH it was TRUE, there were no JUDGING WORDS … it FELT like a judgement to these people…I pointed out that what we feel and how me handle those feelings is OUR                       responsibility and we cannot HOPE to live in a world where we can             design the rules to suit our “feelings”
• Next excuse…(IMHO) getting more and more LUDICROUS…..was that the “posters” use of the word “we” in the upper text (i.e. “I thought WE could all use this today”) was judgmental and that she should not have said WE because she was, in their opinion, making a statement that EVERYONE should believe in God.

By this time I realized that we are now playing a semantics game…and it is getting irritating…because it was ridiculous…but not ready to give up yet…

I pointed out that “we” can mean “you and I”. Their opinion that she was referring to everyone is logically flawed…which I followed with the question…

”So, what you are SAYING…is that if she HAD posted this VERY QUOTE and the top text had been…”I read this and it was something that I could really use today”…you would have NOT BEEN OFFENDED and the post would have been acceptable to you?”

For a moment… JUST A MOMENT…way less than a full minute…the response that came back was “Yes, if it said I, instead of we…it would not have offended us”.

I sat there, knowing by this time, this debate is getting more and more ridiculous and insane…

Big Picture here....

We are NOW talking about a FELLOW SURVIVOR, someone who has suffered the same abuses, who used the word “we” in a post which, according to other people, was WRONG and UNACCEPTABLE….if she was not so INSENSITIVE to their feelings she WOULD have used “I”!

According to this “logic”…That one word change would have transformed this post from being “judgmental, insensitive, inflammatory and UNACCEPTABLE into FINE AND DANDY…but by using the word “we” the post was SO TRANSFORMED that it was a crime worthy of her being attacked …some very nasty comments made that likely offended her beliefs... TOLD by someone that she needs to “keep her God to herself” (although she had NO NOTION of what she did that caused this)….who is being BULLIED, in a support group, and who is now willing to CAPITULATE and give up her RIGHTS to make the issue go away…

And there are ADMINS (mostly) who are verbalizing the TOTALLY ILLOGICAL opinion that while THEY have a right to DERIDE her beliefs, make FUN of her, SHAME her, accuse her of judging them ….

and while EVERYONE ELSE has a right to POST WHATEVER they want (as long as it is not religious)….

and they fully EXPECT that she will “NOT BE OFFENDED”… no matter what is posted…

and if she IS offended…SHE has no right to SAY SO (or she risks being called a religious fanatic, accused of being a bigot or anti-homosexual, etc.)

but instead, she must JUST IGNORE the posts that offend her and she can leave if she does not like it.

On the OTHER HAND…they are ALSO telling her, at the VERY SAME TIME,  that the ONLY TYPE of posts that are NOT TOLERATED are those that THEY PERSONALLY do not like (namely religious) or agree with 

and that THEY, without reservation, can comment in ANY WAY they want to….

including name-calling and being VERY DISRESPECTFUL.. Because they are ABOVE the RULES. 

They are not OBLIGED to just scroll past posts that THEY do not like…and they are not going to simply leave the group if they DON’T like it….but, instead, they have the right to decide, unilaterally, for the WHOLE GROUP…WHAT is acceptable and she WILL follow the rules they tell her to follow …or she’s out.

WHY? - this is my opinion of why....

BECAUSE THEY are right and SHE IS WRONG (there is no in-between…no gray area)…

because, according to what they are SAYING, the ONLY important thing is that THEY are free to do what they want regardless of who it offends…

BUT OTHERS (those that don’t count as much) are only allowed to post what this select group APPROVES of…

BECAUSE THEIR VIEWS, feelings and well-being are PRIMARY and must be served…while the views, feelings and well-being of all OTHERS is SECONDARY.

My HEAD was spinning with the TOTAL HYPOCRISY I was hearing…and I was the LONE person (at that time) that saw a PROBLEM HERE?!?

Very shortly thereafter…after they had a moment to consider the reality that, even THEY KNEW, that they WOULD have attacked her NO MATTER WHETHER it was “We” or “I” because THAT WAS AN NOTHING BUT AN EXCUSE…

Then the TRUE AGENDA came out in the open…

The comments began to be INCREASINGLY OUTRAGEOUS and EXAGGERATED. 

     

Let’s see…I remember someone stating that this “IS NOT A CHRISTIAN GROUP” and  “I am NOT going to stick around if this becomes a CHURCH!” and “ I am UNCOMFORTABLE with mention of RELIGION in ANY CONTEXT and I don’t think it should be ALLOWED HERE!”

·        

THEN, finally, there was a SUGGESTION that the "group" BAN all religious postings of any kind….”Because so MANY people are offended by them”.

NOW we were down to the REAL ISSUE…CONTROL and REFUSAL to understand ANY OTHER VIEWPOINT as valid. LACK of caring and EMPATHY for a viewpoint we don't share....

Hey, at least we were finally getting honest! 

Right?

The truth (as I see it…is not pretty.. but many others see it too) is that it is NOT COOL right now, in our society, to openly JUDGE and RIDICULE or even MENTION another person’s race, sexual orientation or age.

THOSE things are taboo….

Turns out it is ALSO not cool to make statements about CERTAIN religions…you would be crucified IMMEDIATELY, and accused of being a bigot, if you DARED to made fun of, or criticize, being MUSLIM or JEWISH.

BUT the "in thing"…the "NOW thing"…the "SOCIALLY HIP THING" is that it IS OK to say anything you want, make fun of, deride, disrespect and devalue the CHRISTIANS! 

The CURRENT WHIPPING BOYS!

You know...THE SCAPEGOATS that everyone feels free to blame and turn on and castigate.

Much as the Jewish people were treated in the 1930’s and 1940’s (prior to the holocaust)…

and while current society as a whole, shakes their heads and blames the European countries who were “anti-Semitic” and says 

“HOW could they ever participate in that? I would NEVER have kept quiet!”

I do not understand how logical people cannot see that the behavior is the SAME!

ONLY THE TARGET has changed!

So… 

Despite my best efforts at logic and to say that, I would defend any persecuted group…and NOT JUST CHRISTIANS…

Despite my best efforts to EXPLAIN why I did NOT AGREE with the banning of ANY POSTS…

That I DEEPLY believed that this action would begin a downward spiral of control by ONE SMALL GROUP and totally DESTROY the support we were experiencing…. 

Despite attempting to logically explain that banning posts and comments of a religious nature would be NO DIFFERENT, to me, than banning comments and posts about homosexuals, Muslims or ...INDEED... a meme which I pulled off the page FROM THAT VERY DAY, which was a Gandhi quote 

(BUT perfectly fine and caused not a ripple because it was not CHRISTIAN)...

Despite my best efforts to utilize logic to explain this concept...

I was unable to sway the TIDE turning against the posting of religious memes and other faith based posts …

There was still an attempt to convince me that MORE PEOPLE WERE OFFENDED BY THESE RELIGIOUS POSTS THAN I WAS AWARE OF (insinuation that is was a MAJORITY of the group)....

Despite the fact that I pointed out that there are MANY CHRISTIANS in this group...and not ONE OF THEM had complained about the NUMEROUS "Fuck you" strings. They had, NEITHER, threatened to LEAVE THE GROUP if these were not banned. Those who may have found these offensive had done ONE of TWO things...they had either decided to scroll past these posts OR they MAY have made the decision that they could NOT tolerate this and made a QUIET decision to leave the group, without fanfare.

In MY OPINION...this is a MUCH MORE LOGICAL OPTION than attempting to CHANGE the group INTO what they felt comfortable with.

This is NOT a group that is DESCRIBED or DESIGNED to be Secular, Christian, Women's, Gay, Heterosexual, Atheist or any other such description. 

This group is "billed" as a RECOVERY GROUP for people dealing with the abuse of a Narcissist/Sociopath/Psychopath…meant to be supportive and accepting of ANYONE who meets that criteria and follows the rules of civility and respectful disagreement.

Truthfully, all RELIGIOUS CONSIDERATIONS ASIDE, IMHO….those displaying TOLERANCE at THIS POINT…WERE THE CHRISTIANS!

After all that… I WAS STILL unable to make a FEW people understand that a "Fuck you" string is JUST AS OFFENSIVE to a Christian as a religious meme is to an Atheist.

Let’s rephrase that…

While they might have understood that…because I cannot see how a reasonably intelligent person could NOT SEE IT…

when it came RIGHT DOWN TO IT…among that small group…it was not an issue of the fact that Christians/Religious people are being offended …as much, or MORE, as people who are totally SECULAR…

What it came down to, is that, this select group of people DID NOT CARE about the offense felt by CHRISTIANS because they don’t agree with them….

they only care about offense to every OTHER section of the population.

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

I realized...by then...than no amount of logic or reason was going to change the beliefs of these particular people...nor EVEN make them CONSIDER the views of others...

I have been THERE before!

THAT IS WHEN I decided that the ONLY OPTION was to post a poll to see how many people ACTUALLY thought that RELIGIOUS postings should be banned from the group. 

I posted this poll…promising that the MAJORITY WOULD RULE. 

I had also decided that, if the poll showed that the MAJORITY in the group ACTUALLY wanted to BAN these posts….

I could, no longer condone this by being associated with the group any longer.

• IN MY VIEW….this was not an issue of “protecting Christians”.
• It was NOT an issue of my “agreeing with the Christians and, because I do, rallying to the defense of Christians.”
• It was NOT an issue of defending something that I BELIEVE IN.
• IT IS NOT PERSONAL AT ALL!

TO ME, this is an issue of respect, tolerance and the ability to value people for what they are. It is an issue of displaying EMPATHY 

and ...TO ME, it was non-negotiable.

Poll result?

Turns out …. Only TWO of the people who voted, (out of at LEAST 100 people) voted to ban religious posting. 

As long as the post is not judgmental or “preachy” or attempting to sway them to the same belief…The VAST MAJORITY see the value in diversity and are willing to respect other people for what they are….even when they, themselves, are NOT RELIGIOUS.

I suspected as much… but was willing to abide by the majority rule if I was wrong. I have said this before and I am CERTAIN I will say it AGAIN. There is no one person who is MORE IMPORTANT in this group than every other person...and NO ONE is indispensable.

If the group is controlled by any one person...or any small group...it will cease to be functional...and would not be a place where I belonged.

I was SO GLAD when so many people expressed tolerance and support for a different viewpoint and proud of the fact that so many people understand that if you want freedom for yourself…you must allow others the same freedom!